Savas Patsalidis
Barbara, allow me to say how glad I am to have this
opportunity to talk with you about theatre matters that you know so well.
Before opening up our talk to more general theatre concerns, I would like to
start on a more personal note; that is to say, your own reflections on issues
directly related to your chosen line of business. I am curious to hear what
tempted you to pursue a career in theatre. Were you prompted by practical
concerns, romantic or family interactions or, perhaps, some other reason?
During my high school years, I lived in a small town
near Milan; there, our local theatre hosted previews of plays which would later
debut in Milan. It was the decade of the 1970s, years full of cultural turmoil
and innovation; during this time, I had the opportunity to see the work of
great masters like Giorgio Strehler and other artists who brought the
avant-garde to Italian theatre. At the same time, I developed a passion for
reading dramaturgical works, and when the first Faculty of Performing Arts was
inaugurated in Bologna, I had no doubts about what I wanted to do in the
future.
After close to 30 years in the profession, what
have you learned regarding the management of theatre programmes, festivals and
venues? In other words, what qualities does a theatre manager, producer or
advisor need today in order to be successful, bearing in mind all the
intersections, complex crossings, new gender and identity politics to be
negotiated? What kind of mindset and strategy do you think are required for
this role?
This is a complex question, and it is difficult to
answer in one or two sentences. First of all, I think it’s essential to
understand where you are, in which cultural and social territory you are
operating. This recognition is essential in order to create a spark of
interest that will later enable you to build a relationship of trust with both
the audience and the institutions. It is also fundamental to understand what
type of audience you want to work with and what you want to offer them. You
must never forget how important it is to notice what is going on around you and
to pay close attention to social changes which affect our local concerns, as
well as those which occur and influence us on a global scale, as these allow
artistic projects to develop over the years. In the end, you must listen carefully
and select artistic projects to propose with complete honesty, and without
compromising in any way.
As a follow up to my previous question, as compared
to prior practices, have you noticed any major changes in terms of working
conditions, selecting and promoting plays, or teaching methodologies?
Speaking of practices, I don’t think there have
been great changes in recent years; maybe small adjustments, but nothing more.
On the contrary, working conditions and promotion are constantly changing
because of the tools available. Just consider the fact that when I first
started working, the first personal computers had just replaced typewriters,
but we didn’t have much more; there was no internet, no e-mail, no cell phones.
Similarly, our access to international plays and artists was much more
restricted, as air travel was very expensive, especially outside of Europe.
You have devoted the largest part of your career,
from various managerial positions, to collaborating with major theatre groups
and artists. How difficult has it been to balance cooperation with others, on
the one hand, and independent thinking, on the other?
It surely is not simple in the theatre, as clearly
as it is not simple in life. You should always be clear on what your own
role is and what the role of the others is; such understanding helps you gauge
to what limit you can press your own thought forward. Twenty years ago,
however, I would have answered differently, as in those years we used to work
more as a team, artists and managers. The line between roles was more blurred,
so individual thinking could flow and merge with other thought patterns more
readily.
What do you remember from these collaborations? For
example, what would you say that you have gained? Have there been any people
who have impressed you or disappointed you or changed your ideas about
theatre? Are there any productions that stand out in your memory?
The memories are numerous and, fortunately, most
are very positive; and this alone shows what I have gained most significantly
from my work: meaningful human and professional experiences. The world of the
theatre is not that different from the world of everyday reality; in both,
there are people who let you down, others who surprise you and others who open
up new perspectives on theatre. If I have to mention one particular production
that stands out in my mind, I would say, for many reasons, A. da Agatha by Thierry Salmon (1985). This
beautiful work gave me the opportunity to observe an alternative style of
staging a text, of working with actors and the whole team, of using theatrical
space, in sum, of performing theatre.
A. da Agatha by Thierry Salmon, 1985. Photo: Maurizio Buscarino
Over the course of so many years, have you ever
felt that there were cases in which you failed in your role? Do you have any
regrets? If so, perhaps you could describe the lessons you have learned and
offer advice to younger people who might be interested in following your
example.
I have often felt like I have failed, and probably
I have. I obviously have some regrets, but, frankly, this doesn’t make me sad;
on the contrary, I think that making mistakes is part of the journey, as we
learn so much from our mistakes. I don’t feel that I am in a position to give
advice, but there’s one thing that I can say with great certainty, which is to
be honest, always, with yourself and with others. Intellectual and personal
honesty are the basis for a good job; cunning and compromise might provide
shortcuts in reaching one’s goals, but they often bring negligible long-term
results.
So true! You are now the project leader of VIE
international festival. Can you tell us more about the qualities
required for this job? In particular, are these qualities that people can
develop through studying or through experience?
There’s no doubt that an academic base is very
important, but skills for the position are developed primarily on the basis of
professional experience; this entails an in-depth understanding of particular
tasks needed for the smooth functioning of a theatre or a festival, and
constant attention to the different components of the artistic production.
Having attained this level of awareness, you have reached a
concrete and stable position from which to undertake an artistic journey, one
which requires a constant view of artists and their works.
With so many productions on the road, as a
programme advisor, how do you find new ideas, new groups and artists?
I travel constantly, I see as many plays as I can,
and I confront and accept even the smallest changes and needs of the society we
live in.
How do you decide how many are too few, and how
many are too many when it comes to selecting the plays for a festival?
I don’t have an answer to this question. It depends
on the resources you have, first of all the economic possibilities, as well as
the locations, the needs and possibilities of your organization and, obviously,
the closeness of fit to your artistic project.
To open up our discussion, I’d like to ask about
the major post-pandemic challenges that festivals now face, especially European
festivals. Given what is now happening in the world—for example, the economic
recession, the war in Ukraine and climate change, among other pressing
issues—the future seems rather grim to me. What about you, what are your
feelings? How do you think the festivals will manage? Do you think they will
need to undergo drastic change in their structure, organization, philosophy,
travel plans and collaborations in order to move forward?
All the points you’ve raised in your question are
central to our concerns. I believe that changes are necessary, and their quick
implementation is crucial. As a first example, scouting and scheduling require
a multitude of trips to European and non-European countries. The situation
you’ve described raises ethical issues regarding the climate crisis, as well as
economic issues, since the costs of traveling are continuously increasing.
Nevertheless, to plan a festival one has to see the works, and theatre is an
art that has its own raison d’etre based
on the relationship between the stage performers and the audience.
As a first step to address this problem, we could
aim to increase and diversify cooperation between managers as well as consider
dividing and sharing commitments and information between theatres and festivals
from different countries. The same logic applies to tournées, since projects from abroad need to be
presented in as many cities as possible in order to reduce the ecological and
economic impact of flights and road vehicles. Clearly, we need to build
national and international networks to bring this about. In fact, this approach
has already been adopted in some European countries, at least within their own
national productions. However, Italy still lags behind in this area, since
ongoing disagreements over premieres prevail, largely because of dysfunctional
ministerial parameters.
Unfortunately, Italy still lags behind in this
area; it’s difficult to agree between theatrical institutions on a tour of a
foreign show, especially due to the media and ministerial importance of
premieres. The result is that foreign shows are almost always presented in a
single Italian city because no one wants to give up the premiere, taking away
opportunities from companies and artists. I hope these “habits”can soon change.
As much as possible, we need to reassess the entire
process of creating theatre; we could design more agile or, perhaps, even
virtual scenes, and consider setting up teams to work on the same format across
countries but use a different cast in each country. Clearly, there is a lot of
work to be done.
With respect to my previous question, what I have
in mind is the extensive use of technology, of live streaming as one solution.
It seems to me that most festivals will make extensive use of this potential in
order to reduce expenses and, at the same time, reach out to larger audiences.
No doubt there are obvious advantages in such an option, but I would like to
talk more about the disadvantages.
As I was saying before, theatre thrives on the
relationship between actor and audience and on the connection created by their
coexistence. During lockdown, live streaming was inevitably escalated, but I
don’t see an alternative to the presence of the audience; maybe something else
could be added, but nothing can replace live performance. Examples of digital
and virtual theatre, such as I AM (VR) by
Susanne Kennedy and Markus Selg, which we are presenting in the 2022 edition of
VIE Festival, obviously belong to another category, since they build their
dramaturgy around the use of technologies, but they still require the presence
of an audience.
What is the current state of affairs for festivals
in Italy? More specifically, how many international festivals operate in the
country right now? Are they all funded by the State? And what is their impact
on theatre life in Italy?
There are lots of international festivals in Italy,
I wouldn’t know exactly how many, and some have an impact on theatre life in
our country, while others much less, depending on multiple factors. The State
funds some of the festivals; others are funded by local authorities, or, as in
the case of VIE, the festival is included in the activities of the organizing
institution, which in our case is Emilia Romagna Teatro ERT/ National Theatre.
This arrangement is required by a Ministerial provision concerning the national
theatres that don’t have additional funding for festivals.
Regarding VIE Festival in particular, do you
think it offers something that differentiates it from the other Italian
festivals? What are your organizational and operational principles?
VIE tries to respond to contemporary influences,
aiming to scout new talent but still hosting international artists who have
already gained prominence and recognition. Over the years, VIE introduced the
Italian public to numerous international artists, such as Alain Platel,
Federico León, Amir Reza Koohestani, Dead Centre, Alvis Hermanis, Belarus Free
Theatre, Sergio Blanco and Matías Umpierrez. There are always several returning
artists and companies each year, but we always try to make room for artists who
have never performed in our festival before.
Are there any particular productions that you
remember most vividly from all the years you have worked with VIE?
Naturally, there are many, but I will mention just
one which is particularly dear to me: the 1997 performance of Texts for Nothing by Samuel Beckett, in the
extraordinary interpretation staged by Joseph Chaikin, founder and director of
the Open Theatre in New York. This performance generated one of the most deeply
moving theatre experiences for the VIE audience in the history of our festival.
I feel …jealous! I have never seen Texts for Nothing. I know I missed something exceptional, something unique. Chaikin is
one of my favorite 1960s theatre artists. I still teach his Serpent, the play signed by Jean Claude van Itallie. When it comes to the
people in attendance, do you find Italian audiences receptive to change?
Do they welcome radical ruptures?
Generally, I would say yes. Obviously, there are
different kinds of audiences, and some are more traditionalist, but the
audience who appreciates contemporary theatre is very receptive.
What is the key to success when communicating with
the new and mostly heterogeneous audiences, especially with the younger
generation, the millennials?
I think the key to success is in education, by
working in schools and helping students get closer to theatre by giving them
the conceptual tools to examine it more deeply. The use of social media needs
to be further differentiated to reflect the different users; for example, Facebook targets people in the 40–45 years of age
bracket, Instagram has a wider spectrum, while Tiktok can amplify an event only if it is
specifically of interest to the youngest users. In the final analysis, direct
engagement is still the most effective way to reach young audiences, but it’s
important to develop and perfect new routes that are more appealing to younger
generations.
What would you say characterizes contemporary
Italian theatre? Can you identify any dominant trends, or styles of directing
or acting?
I don’t think there is one dominant trend. Italian
theatre is broad and extensive; so-called traditional theatre remains very
popular, but, in various cities, there are spaces or moments dedicated to more
contemporary forms, performances and experimentations.
Italy is a country of intense political debate and
confrontation. Does all this intensity find its way into local theatre
practice? Do you think there is enough diversity, across languages, styles,
orientations, ideologies and/or concerns?
Until now, political debate has not been a central
theme of theatrical practice. There are performances that focus on
socio-political issues such as that of migrants and racism, others that reflect
on issues such as the rights of the LGBT community, violence against women etc.
Politics and ideologies underlie these issues, but they are rarely dealt with
directly.
There are different styles and languages but the orientations and ideologies are similar.
Italian culture is very popular and highly esteemed
around the world. Do you think Italian theatre also gets the international
attention it deserves? If not, what measures could be taken to make its stature
more widely recognized and appreciated?
Up until the 1990s, Italian theatre, especially
experimental theatre, was followed largely outside of our national borders. In
fact, artists of international significance, such as Romeo Castellucci, emerged
from those years. I think, however, that during the last decade the interest
has diminished slightly; the high quality of Italian artists is still
recognized outside of Italy, but those who manage to present their work abroad
are considerably fewer in number. Probably an incisive ministerial intervention
would be necessary, with concrete and differently structured forms of
assistance available, to support more widely the circulation of Italian
Companies.
Castellucci has a big fan club in Greece. I
recently saw in Athens (at Stegi—Onasis Cultural Center) his latest
production Bros. I was quite moved. I thought it was a very
powerful dramatization of the theme of violence, an all-time classic. That
said, I am curious to find out who the most frequently produced contemporary
Italian playwrights are in the international arena.
I’m probably not the best person to answer your
question, but I can still mention two. The first is Stefano Massini,
whose Lehmam Trilogy, directed by Luca Ronconi at the
Piccolo Teatro di Milano, was tremendously successful. This play has been
translated in many languages and presented all over the world. However, Stefano
Massini achieved the highest eminence as a playwright last June when he was
awarded 5 Tony Awards. Another Italian playwright with an international
presence is Emanuele Aldrovandi, who has won many prizes in Italy and whose
texts have been translated and published in eight different languages.
As a critic myself, I would like to talk a little
bit about Italian theatre critics. Are there any critics left in Italy who
still make their living from writing? In general, do critics make their
presence felt? Do they get involved, and do people pay attention to them?
And last but not least, is there any ongoing dialogue between the community of
critics and the community of artists?
Some theatre critics in Italy manage to make a
living by writing through diversification, not only by writing for a single
newspaper, as fees are low and the space dedicated to theatre is limited, but
also by curating publications for theatres or companies, writing essays by commission,
and so on. Others take on different activities, such as teaching, and some are
frequently involved with theatres, festivals and artists.
For instance, for many years VIE Festival has been
hosting a group of observers and critics of the performing arts to coordinate a
laboratory of observation, viewing and journalistic writing; their efforts help
to promote the encounter between the languages of contemporary entertainment
and the public, as they invite participants and readers to recognize and cultivate
their role as critical spectators. This team works on festival projects and
publishes interviews, presentations and reviews every day in a local newspaper.
There are other similar examples of this kind of
cooperation, nurturing a dialogue with Italian artists. More generally, though,
concerning the attention of the audience, I’m pretty skeptical. I think that
the readers of theatre critics are mostly insiders and selected audiences,
while the attention of the general public is focused primarily on celebrities.
I guess critics in most countries experience
difficulties similar to those of their Italian colleagues. There is too much
talk, at least among western artists, about getting involved, about canceling
unhealthy cultures, about political correctness, about #metoo, the politics of
sentimentalism and so on. The postmodernist slogan Anything goes has by now become a kind of modus operandi. Theatre is
experiencing a phenomenal fragmentation of sorts: too many “tribes,” so to
say, each with its own truths, its own agenda of rights and wrongs, its own
list of musts and must nots. Do you suppose this promises more democracy, more
quality and more inclusivity? What does the Italian theatre community think of
all these trends? How do you think all these fragments come together to form a
theatre front of democratic heterogeneity? Or alternatively, do you anticipate
a return to the polemics and bipolarities of modernism?
Honestly, I don’t think this is a major phenomenon
in Italy; and, for the most part, I don’t see any division or fight between the
so-called tribes. There are surely different methods, objectives and agendas,
as well as themes closer to some more than to others, but, overall, I believe
they coexist and often support each other.
With all this in mind, here is my last question:
how do you envision the tomorrow for theatre?
I really wouldn’t know, but I am an optimist.
Theatre and art in general renew and regenerate themselves constantly, and even
more so in periods of crises they find that they can be reinvigorated and
reenergized.
First published in Critical Stages #26 (December 2022)
